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kamalFM Follow
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kamalFM | Follow Category: Economy March 05, 2014 - 12:15 PDT | Last Edited: March 05, 2014 - 12:15 PDT 17 1203
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Given the banking crisis of 2008 and U.S. government actions (too big to fail theory) do you believe that capitalism is a fair system to the middle class? (not promoting any other system)

 17 Answers | Tags: N/A Flag

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fozolie Follow
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fozolie | Follow | 11 years ago

You are confusing Capitalism with a Fractional Reserve Banking which is prune to failures when it goes unchecked   

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kamalFM Follow
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kamalFM | Follow | 11 years ago

Dear Fozolie, my survey has nothing to do with the banking system but the fact that the U.S. government is the flag bearer of Capitalism in the world. Would they come to rescue you and I for such "mishaps" ?

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hamal Follow
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hamal | Follow | 11 years ago

"not promoting any other system"

 Now why the disclaimer? Is it because you are incapable of even dreaming of a better alternative, or you have an alternative in mind, but dare not express it in case....... :) 

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kamalFM Follow
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kamalFM | Follow | 11 years ago

Dear Hamal, you hit the bull's eye. It was exactly because of comment like yours that I decided to have a disclaimer in there. Obviously I have my own opinion but what is the purpose of a survey if I answer it myself? It is equivalent to polling a group of people and lean them toward a desired outcome. BTW, everybody is capable of dreaming but accomplishing it is another story. 

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hamal Follow
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hamal | Follow | 11 years ago

"It was exactly because of comment like yours..."

Kamal jaan, No, I did not comment. I asked a question. Direct and to the point. Now you could either turn this into a constructive debate by simply answering my question, direct and to the point or try to avoid answering it and be ignored like the old woman who would curse and complain about everything in life without suggesting an alternative,  whilst sticking stubbornly to life.

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kamalFM Follow
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kamalFM | Follow | 11 years ago

I'm not going to fight you on technicalities of what is a comment and what is a question. I suffice at saying that to me a comment can be presented in a question form. At the risk of spoiling it for my audience, I still believe in the principles of capitalism and free market society but events like 6 years ago has made me think of whether a socialism system similar to Scandinavian countries may not be a bad alternative. It is an on going debate. 

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DoctorMohandes Follow
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DoctorMohandes | Follow | 11 years ago

that is a good point actually.

 

 

In terms of corruption and illicit activities,  i don't think there really is a difference between banking systems regardless of what government system we are talking about. We have got corruption in both socialistic and capitalistic methods, the former maybe to a lesser degree, but there is corruption nontheless.

In fact, I happen to believe that since in socialism, It is the government that in effect runs the show, there is more chance for corruption. One good thing about the capitalism , is that you will always get the oppurtunity to recoup your losses, no matter how devastating they have been. Looking at some reports here and there, it is obvious that Mortgage lenders have gone back to square one and have started that old trend of "sub-prime" lending.

It is those same principles of Capitalism, with all the repercussions and risks that create opportunities. Government interference in many cases, have had a tendency to retard growth rather than adding fuel to it.

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DoctorMohandes Follow
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DoctorMohandes | Follow | 11 years ago

Kamal

How could you have one without the other? I doubt if you can even beging talking about Capitalism without considering the banking system. And i think that they will come to rescue us more effectively and meaningfully than the rival system, By offering us a chance to get back on our feet and start again. 

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amirkabear4u Follow
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amirkabear4u | Follow | 11 years ago

Dear hamal

I also do believe on this site one needs to have some kind of disclaimer. Because the moment one says "god is good" he or she branded as IRI supporter.

 

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Ex_CoP Follow
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Ex_CoP | Follow | 11 years ago

Kamal joooon, but you are promoting another "system"; which, oh.... which may I ask?

My bet is you are promoting (or have inclinations toward) a system which even the instigators have abandoned: Comonist (as we say in parsi), or socialism which is the watered down version of commies.

But....given that it does not work, (eh, USSR, no moe', and China is the biggest capitalist there is), capitalism looking pretty dang good. Has its flaws, but what doesn't?

What you state in your survey in condemning capitalism is human greed. That, along with lust are two of the 7 deadly sins. (pun intended....)

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fozolie Follow
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fozolie | Follow | 11 years ago

The Fractional Reserve Banking is a collusion between the banks and governments to keep growth in the system. You can have Capitalism without it (as the world did prior this systems of banking and credit) but growth rates will be tiny and sometimes no growth. It is an inflationary system.   It is a question of speed of growth delivery.  Without it we would not have had the rapid improvements in technology, science and all other fruits of growth.   If the western governments were true capitalists they should not have interfered. (hence the "ideological" dithering over Lehman's) But because of the collusive nature of monetary fraud (creation of money and credit) inherent in fractional reserve banking and the extremity of the shock, they chose the path of rescuing the system. Consequently everyone pays.  
 
3 previous incarnations of the Fed went bankrupt!! So the vulnerability of this system of banking was not new. 
 
PS: if you want to blame someone then blame the MBA's who deregulated the necessary checks established since the last failure in the 30's. For example removing the restrictions on and separation of investment banking. Or limitations (not ban) on short selling. The guys who allowed those changes were criminally negligent.  
 

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kamalFM Follow
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kamalFM | Follow | 11 years ago

Ex-Cop jaan, I expressed my opinion in reply to Hamal jaan. As mentioned before I am still a believer in a Capitalist system but beginning to lose faith. I know there is a system of check and balance that is suppose to correct and adjust itself every now and then but since the collapse of Soviet Union there is void that has caused big business to become more greedy and I hope you agree with me that number one priority of every U.S. administration (as the flag bearer of Capitalism) has been to protect the interest of big business as evident in the collapse of banking and auto industries. My survey was aimed at majority of us who belong to the middle class and are not represented equally as the big guys. Just think for a moment, the biggest banking fraud in the history of mankind happened in front of our eyes and no one was held accountable! The only person who ended up in jail was Mr. Madoff who dared to steal from the top 1 percent!! Believing in a system should not make us blind to the realities that are happening around us. Living in the U.S. for almost 40 years, I can see a trend of shrinking middle class that is alarming to say the least.

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kamalFM Follow
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kamalFM | Follow | 11 years ago

p.s. I have not flagged any of the comments. 

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Ex_CoP Follow
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Ex_CoP | Follow | 11 years ago

Yes, I agree that one of the pillars of capitalism is big business. We can talk about this til the cows come home, or til the mullahs turn honest, but like I said, Greed is the main cause. If you want to tie greed with capitalism, there is a connection (it provides a path), but greed is a human trait, we cannot get away from it regardless of the system, so, nuff said!

Flag is no issue. I know we have some old lefties on this site and some folks hate it when someone points out the naked truth.........No worries!

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kamalFM Follow
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kamalFM | Follow | 11 years ago

I have no issue with the greed part, as Gordon Gekko said "Greed is good" but when we witness this injustice and all the thieves go free then I must start to think on whether the system is protecting me as the little guy or not. What did the justice system do during all this fiasco? Frontline program on PBS (which btw is mostly funded by donations from big business) had several programs on the subject of banking collapse which was eye opening for me and yet no one was held accountable. Would they give you and I the same courtesy? I don't think so

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fozolie Follow
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fozolie | Follow | 11 years ago

But you are describing apathy. The only reason greed has got of out of control is because people let it. When Americans elect criminally corrupt republican presidents and criminally incompetent democrats this is the result. You said you had no agenda but you keep saying US Governemnt as flag bearer of Capitalism yet I gave you a well reasoned argument as to why they did follow Capitalist principles because of the immediate social cost. It goes back to apathy. The video game generation is politically inept and impotent and it can do is moan when it all goes wrong from the financial crisis to inept foreign adventures like supporting the Taliban against the Soviets or Iraq invasion.

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kamalFM Follow
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kamalFM | Follow | 11 years ago

Dear Fozolie, first of all I want to thank you for your healthy participation in this discussion. As for your last commentary, I too believe that lack of involvement by ordinary citizens has a lot to do with what is happening here. We have become robots that vote every 4 year to either number one or number two and pad ourselves on the shoulder for doing our duty as citizens. Despite of this fact, my question for you is what happened to the check and balance policy and whyt all these so called corrections only benefit the top echelon of the society? Why gas price that went up to 4 dollars a gallon (when for a short period oil was close to $150 a barrel) is still close to $4/gallon? wouldn't it make sense that in a free market the prices to come down? That was meant as just one example, there are numerous other signs that show there are no free markets anymore when big business is involved. They practically have bought the system. Greed is good as long as it is regulated.

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